Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Hey guys.

I am new to 5.56/223 black rifles. I used to have AKs but I think I want to get into something that is chambered in an american style round for availability's sake should TSHTF.

I have ruled out 308, so let's keep the discussion with 223 please.

The question is: What is the most reliable assault rifle I can buy in this caliber? (including brand, if an AR15) Consider it a "if you could only have one rifle" question. I will probably be buying a hunting rifle in the same caliber as well, but I want a black rifle that will perform in both hunting and defense realms.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

There is a company in Nevada, I forget their name, but they've licenced and produce an AK variant chambered in 5.56 NATO from some eastern-block country (Bulgaria, I think...). They claim 2-3MOA depending on the ammo. Last time I priced them, they were around $400.
If I had it all to do over again, that's the way I'd go.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

How much money do you have to spend? My dad and I were drooling over this a few weeks ago at the gun show, but it was about $1,600. The gas piston design is more reliable than the AR-15 design (others know infinitely more about this than I do).

http://www.ruger.com/SR556/

Edit: Living in CA will severely limit your .223 options.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Top tier AR...Colt, Noveske, Sabre Defense, LMT with 1/7 twist and 18 inch barrel, with mid-length gas block. I don't currently own any however. I guess I will have to settle on my Rock River middie, or Stag Arms M-4 config 16 incher.

Not interested in the piston guns...too heavy, not as accurate as impingement, IMO. If you want a piston, get a AK in 223..

Now then...:signs1:

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Location updated bancha

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I've read that the Smith M&P15 is a reliable rifle with a midrange price.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

There are only about 3 manufacturers that make all the AR receivers and parts...

S&W puts a good one together. So does Rock River, Stag Arms, Bushmaster, others...

Wiki: These rifles were first produced by Stag Arms, but marketed under the Smith & Wesson name. Currently Smith & Wesson makes the lower receiver in house while the barrel is supplied by Thompson/Center, an S&W company.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Let me be the first one on this thread to resurrect THE CHART (updated).

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Many nations who have a choice are going the route of the 5.56x45 AK. Most of the nations going with the M-16/M-4 are doing so because they are aligned with the US and get money to spend on US weapons. I have a feeling the 5.56x45 AK will eventually take the lead and hold the dominant position till displaced by energy weapons. In a way it's a shame since the 5.45x39 has a tapered case.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Go with the Saiga chambered in .223 with a 20 inch barrel for added velocity, penetration and lower muzzle flash. Many upgrading options now out there also.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Bought a S&W M&P 15 last election day. Haven't shot it yet. I already have a huge stash of .223/5.56mm made the most sense at the time. M16 platform is 2nd nature for me...makes sense.

I really do want a 7.62 NATO battle rifle though.....:biggrin:.....:moon:

Not sure if this issue has be discussed here but carrying a US made weapon during SHTF and Post SHTF may be an advantage over a AK style weapon.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I had a Bushmaster AR-15 Modular Carbine before the boating accident.

Chambered for 5.56 Nato or .223. Loved that gun. Never jammed, and was extremely reliable even after having 10k plus rounds put through it.

Here's 2 sites for some information.

http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWVMF16FMC.asp

http://sgcusa.com/Rifles-Bushmaster/...duct_info.html

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

What about one of them FN-SCAR 5.56?

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Before I forget...a good source for uppers and ar stuff: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

Also: http://www.pkfirearms.com/store/get_...?type=1&term=8

And: http://www.adcofirearms.com/

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

It's a little funny how the West is so busy trying to invent the AK which has already been in existence for 6 decades.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Get a Colt if the money is not stopping you. They have the best resale value.

They are also the least work to convert if you can get it done down the line.

E-A

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I almost got completely out of small caliber rifles, sold the AR, etc..

But I had a good supply of ammo so I took a look around. No way was I going back in the crappy gooped up world of gas impingement systems.

I looked at AR conversions and they seemed OK but then I learned about the Robinson XCR. There are plenty of reasons to like this rifle, including interchangeable barrels to shoot 5.45....

DYODD to learn more.

;-)

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Colt, what else?

:biggrin:

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

That's surprising on the Smith & Wesson...don't they have lifetime warranties on their pistols & revolvers?

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I've owned a Colt, Rock River, Bushmaster and S&W M&P. After putting each gun through there paces I finally settled on what I feel was the best firearm.

Colt LE6940!

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/botach_2071_36818773

But whatever you choose make sure you get reliable magazines. I suggest PMAGS.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I emailed my gunsmith about one of these when Bud's had them. He said he'd buy one in a heartbeat, especially at the price they were asking.

Ordered mine about the same time. Finally got to shoot it over the summer. Shoots nice, no problems. I also have one from Rock River Arms. Pleased with that, as well.

The Saiga in .223 isn't a bad recommendation, either - if you can find one. The only other drawback is that high-cap mags are expensive. You can find AR mags cheap all day long nowadays, often under $10 each. A 30-rd surefire magazine will run you close to $40.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

No truer words were ever posted to a forum. I've owned them all... FAL/FN, M1A, Garand, H&K .223 and .308, More variants of the AR-15 than I can remember or count, AK, SCAR, M1 Carbine, and more pre-WWII surplus guns than I want to admit.

NOTHING beats the AK for just plain DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Nothing. The Garand in .308 comes close though... very, very close.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

No argument there. I'm an equal opportunity employer, who believes there's a gun for every occasion (and also an occasion for every gun!) AR? Check. AK? Check. They're all God's children in my mind! :biggrin:

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Why are you looking specifically for something called "Assault"? I don't agree with that media term for this type of rifle and owners of such rifles don't generally refer to them as Assault rifles. The A in AR stood for Armalite when the platform was first introduced.

Maybe I'm just cranky about semantics lately?

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

The time for such games is long gone. It's time to lock, load, and saddle up...

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Colt is the best if you are looking at a direct gas impingement system. Unfortunately their piston AR model has been in the delayed release category for several years now. Noveske is also GTG. If you are looking for the best piston AR, HK 416/417(good luck) LMT, LWRC, or FN SCAR are your best bets. All of these rifles are top of the line and their prices reflect it. Other lesser brands have good guns but out of the box consistency/reliability may vary. You know what they say, buy cheap, buy twice. Bx3

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Maybe that's why they keep trying to copy it. The XM8 and FN-SCAR both have a number of AK features including the scandalous charging handle on the right hand side of the receiver. The XM8 lifted its mag catch right off the 60 year old AK-47. Even with AR-15's they're switching out impingement system for piston systems. Heck, they're chambering them for the AK's rounds. Robinson Armament even promotes its XCR with the words "Kalashnikov Theory." My point is if you want an AK why not just get an AK? The platform is plenty accurate, AK's that shoot 2moa or less abound. The multi-caliber AK has already been built. It would be a simple thing to replace the rear sight block with a weaver rail for modern optics or just use a Beryl style rail. But nope, the designers just keep trying to reinvent the Kalashnikov... but for some reason they just can't ditch the AR magazine. That's too bad because that is one of the major weaknesses of the AR platform while the mag is one of the major strengths of the AK platform. Someday the Western world will catch up to the AK. Sooner or later we'll get US custom shops building high performance Kalashnikovs. Red Star Arms has already experimented with a an AK in highpower. Here is the report. http://www.redstararms.com/vepreport.pdf

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Was offered one of these yesterday, skyvike, from a FOAF needing/wanting to sell.

Did a little homework and, yeah, they seem impressive.
Want to make sure this piece is "clean" before I touch it though.

Maybe you can answer this. Do all those weapons labeled "Military and Law Enforcement Only" have full auto capability? If so, I've answered my own question cause the guy says it is marked as such.
.
Was thinking that this may just be a marketing ploy (the Markings). I have only seen pics of this piece so far, so I don't really know much about it.

Also, I can't , or haven't so far, been able to find their order page for conversion parts (i.e. to 7.62).

I couldn't afford this at full retail, but if this one checks out, it could be a very good deal. (just don't want to get involved in one with a fully-auto selector switch ...I'm a bit leery)

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I would suggest a S&W M&P, this is one of the better basic rifles available today. With prices starting around 700.00 they are hard to beat.

I would advise staying away from the piston guns such as the Ruger in ARs however. Until they solve the the problem of bolt tilt they are likely to cause more problems than the mostly non-existent advantages solve. Rather than buying an AR that has been forced to be something it wasn't designed to be, if you want a piston gun buy one designed to be a piston gun such as the AR-180, FN/FNC, etc.

Try to find a range that rents guns and try several with different configurations and go with what feels best ergonomically and one you shoot well.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

OUCH! $1300 for an AK chambered in AR!

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

AR-15 buyers guide....

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Mini-14 in SS. My favorite non 308 boating gun.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

HK 416 - EXPENSIVE AS ALL DOO-DAH ($3k - $5k and I'm not sure civilians can own one, or even if HK makes a semi-auto), but it WILL DO something any other AR design will not do.

FUNCTION RELIABLY IN THE SAND AND WATER... Watch closely as he fires full auto after he pulls it from sand as sand flies off of it for almost the whole magazine and after he pulls it from soaking in water it literally drips water out of the barrel - at least that's what it looked like to me.

And the gas is NOT transferred to the bolt, which means the bolt stays STONE COLD. BIG DEAL FOR SURE in the 'why is my MBR so reliable' category.


And no, I still don't like the .223/5.56 round, but that's OK, they also make an HK 417 in .308!

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Seems like as good a place to ask this as any.
What about the .223 galil I have seen them for sale, but never heard much about them, are they any good? Should they be avoided?

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Nothing wrong with the Galil. I owned one in .223, years ago. Mags were very pricey back then. Good accuracy, reliable, though heavy...a cool looking "assault" rifle, combined some of the best features of the AR (caliber, barrel), FAL (folding stock, built-in bi-pod), and the AK (milled receiver, op-rod).

The Golani rebuilds on the market today are good, much cheaper in price, cheaper mags around...non-chrome lined barrel (not a real issue). They don't come with all the goodies the original had, like flip-up night sights, wire cutter bi-pod, etc., but still a solid weapon, IMO.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I haven't seen anyone mention this--

Is there an AK style rifle around that does take standard AR15 magazines?

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

The magazines retain entirely differently. AK mag retention is tighter, but makes mag changes more difficult.

When you put together loose tolerances, a heavy BCG, a short stroke piston and an AR mag, you get something like an FN SCAR.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

It's not really something you'd want but yes, adapters do exist.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=9587

Several people have used Galil AR mag adapters. But again, why? The 5.56 AK mags are so much better and aren't really that expensive. Especially compared to the high reliability AR mags.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

No. The marking is a remnant of the AWB of '94-'04. Guns with "banned" features that were manufactured in that time were roll stamped with Military and LE Only. Almost all are Semi only.

Nowadays a lot of lowers with the stamp are floating around the market.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Damn.. I really like the Arsenal SLR, but at the same price as a top brand AR? Hmmm...

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Another option is a converted Saiga in 223...Russian quality and easily adapted to take Bulgarian mags. Shop around for best price...about half the cost of the Arsenal.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I had Saiga 7.62x39s before... great guns. I may have to just go with the 223 version. What do they need to take the bulgarian magazines (which I am guessing are more plentiful and cheaper than the factory SAIGA mags)?

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

You could use Surefire mags...$38 ish.

Or get a Dinzaq bullet guide for around 25 bucks. Comes with drill and tap. Install guide then file mag latch a bit to get good mag lockup...not sure what Bulgie 223 mags are going for. Many guys on the Saiga forum use Galil mags.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Thanks bwelkk,

That part of the deal really eases my mind.

...also, I'm always concerned about the history of a weapon that I'm buying.

I asked my dealer how THEY know if a gun is stolen or not.

He said if the seller looks and sounds legit, they just purchase it if they want it ...they don't really know though. They just get all of the supporting info and documentation (D.L. Info and such) and do the deal.

Thanks for that info!

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

If you're insistent upon having a mouse gun, then I suggest you get a Bushmaster ACR when they become available in a few months. It's worth the wait, to be sure.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cr-cropped.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sada_16fde.jpg

Robinson Arms has a nice concept, but it seems to me that the one thing they are most consistent about is flakiness. Since Bushmaster is owned by the same company which owns Remington and Marlin, I'm thinking they have staying power.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Here is an informative AR-15 thread from a great web-site called AWRM.

In terms of ammo and spare parts availability, ease of maintenance and modularity, I prefer the gas-operated AR platform.

Need I mention that the AR is made in the USA?

http://hchq.biz/mia_photos/noveske.jpg

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Well, the AR-18 was a fine design with its twin pistons, but somehow those making the decision were suffering from rectal cranial inversions and chose the M16 instead.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I guess that would depend on whether or not you could convince yourself that an AR is worth as much as a Kalashnikov. I own both. I like the AR for ballistic testing and range use but the AK is the better fighting weapon. The more extreme the conditions the more heavily favored the AK becomes until you reach the point that the AR won't function reliably but the AK is still going. There are a lot of variables in a fight, I don't want my weapon to be one of them.

It's not that AR's won't shoot bullets the majority of the time under most common circumstances but they have so many weird issues from ergonomics to the reliability of the action to structural limitations in the design they just don't make sense. If the AR-15 didn't happen to have similar controls to a 1911 I don't think they would have ever been taken very seriously by private shooters. Another Mini-14 or SU-16 more or less. AK's are not the only good "assault carbine" in the world but there is a reason they dominate the market.

In other words if you want one and have the money then buy it. They are well worth the price of admission.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Just breezed through the post, I guess their is a reason why OP does not want to build his own. If not, is what I would suggest. Reason I am is so that I know how to fix it if something goes wrong, and what can be swapped out etc. If you shop around can get deals on parts. All I need is my sopmod buttstock , tube spring & buffer (H2). Going to start on upper this weekend regardless. Make sure you get 5.56 nato barrel, 1/7 twist, 75-77 gr most likley will not be stable in 1/9 and up, do not know about 1/8.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f6...g/DSCN2366.jpg

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

I'm not sure I understand what was wrong with the M-14 in the first place. If lighter ammo was the issue they should have revisited the round the Euros originally proposed with the FAL. The .308 was the US' fault. Not that it was the worst thing that ever happened, but come on... make up your mind already.

As I recall the M-16 was an Air Force project anyway. I won't talk trash about the Air Force, they are probably the best in the world at what they do, but fighting on the ground with rifles isn't their forte. I personally believe it's the Air Force that makes the AR type rifles viable military arms in the first place. If we didn't have complete and utter air dominance and had to fight the old fashioned way I think enough people would be pissed about the platform's characteristics to get it changed out for something more suitable. There are those who are working on that right now even. I would point out that few nations who lack air power use an AR. While AR's may be expensive to you and I they are cheap for military buyers and the cost of the rifle is insignificant compared to ammo costs. The British SA80 is a similar story. It will be very interesting to see how the Iraqis and Georgians fare with their M4's.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

If price is a concern.....Here is a great price for an A3 Configuration,





http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/...15792&cat=161&

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

The problem with the HK416 (Which will be available to civvies at a premium) is it shares the same problem that all piston driven ARs have. Carrier Tilt, which after a few thousand rounds will render the AR inoperable.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...fypoo/tilt.jpg

If you want a piston, get an AK or a M1. I prefer the AR, but to each their own.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Strictly economics - the M16 has proven to be far more profitable for the MIC.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Sorry, I can't answer that question. It's something you'll want to ask the factory. I'm pretty sure the two I've had my hands on were NOT marked like that.

I'd watch gunbroker.com - I've seen them there for considerably less than the factory sells them for.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Good luck,

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

When I was considering the XCR in 6.5G (which they keep putting off the introduction of) I found that authorized Robarms dealers had the lowest prices, lower than GunJoker. I would suggest getting a list of those dealers from Robarms and call them for inventory/price checks if that's what you're wanting.

However I would suggest you check into Magpul's/Bushmaster's Adaptive Combat Rifle.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Any opinions on DPMS?

By the way, great thread guys. Lots of good information in here.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

DPMS is owned by the same company that owns Bushmaster, Remington, and Marlin. It's above mid-range in quality, but not on par with the best - IMO.

Re: Best 5.56/223 assault carbine?
 

Cerberus? It seems they are trying to take over the entire gun market in America.

Edit: Oh that's right, I forgot who controls Cerberus....